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 | The discussion everyone (should) fears! |  |
 Posted: 09-18-2002 02:51 AM |
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| TuMTuM |
| Will code HTML for food! |
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Disclamer:
I am talking about the christian god here
if you find this thread in anyway offending, please tell me what to change to make it better.
Yes, this is going to be a long thread, but it will be interesting. What I want to discuss here is the following question: "Is/are there, or is/are there not a/multiple god/gods?". Yes, this question might seem a bit high for you to discuss in a normal/non flaming/non nonsense way, but im sure you can all manage to do that. Right? Ok, my personal opinion is, that there is no god, that there is no heaven/hell and that when you die, and youll never come back.
The reason for my beleive is simple, when I was young (6/7 years old) I asked our reverend at school if there was a god. He said "Yes there is". I asked him, did god create the universe. "Yes he did". So I said, before the universe existed there was nothing right? He answered "That is correct". So if there is nothing, then god could not have existed, since if god would have existed, then there would be something, cause where would god live then. The reverend could not answer all those questions, and he became slightly mad.
A few years later, I still tought the same way.I was 9/10 years old, and I still visited the same school with now a different reverend. Now I had an interesting question. A lot of people in my class stopped beleiving in Santa Claus (actually it was sinterklaas  ), and I asked the reverend does he exist. He said "If you beleive in him, he exists". So I said, "That means he doesnt exist, right?" and he answered me with "Yes". Well, I didnt cry about, since I had known this a long time, but what he just said was that Santa could only exist if you beleive in him, so he can not exist if you dont beleive in him. The bastard that I am asked "If I dont beleive in Santa, then he doesnt exist, right. So if I dont beleive in god, then that must mean he doesnt exist either.". Now he was pissed, and he left the school asking where I got the guts to ask that.
As I grew older, I started realizing more and more. For instance, we found dinosaur bones, wich according to the bible could not have lived, since we were created at the 6th day, after the earth was created. Also, it has been a proven fact, that we have evolved from monkeys, while the animals where created at (I beleive) the 5th day, so god can not have created the humans on the 6th, day, as he had already created them at the 5th day.
Another thing that puzzles me is the fact that god cannot be perfect, alltough he should be perfect according to the bible. So if a perfect being can create a non perfect world, then he cannot be perfect.
Also, why would god create a world? According to the bible, he did it because he was bored, but you cannot be bored when you are perfect, so you cannot be perfect, if you are god, so you cannot be god.
Let's assume that god is not perfect at all, but he does exist.
Now, he is bored, so he creates a world. Why would he create a world and not look after it? If you play sim city, do you create a city and then stare at it for years, watching how everythings burning, or destroyed. NO, what you do is either play with the world, or you support it. Watching the world evolve is boring, thus god would not be rid of his boredom, and he would have created the world for nothing.
Let's try to discuss it in a more sience way now:
God is good. If god exists, then he is the highest that there is. There cannot be things that are higher then god. If a person is 'good' or 'bad', then they are being compared to god, wich means if they are good, then they are higher then god, wich cannot be, since god is the highest.
Now lets discuss his son, Jezus.
If god is good, then he would not put a child in a bad/instable world, as he would harm that child and automatically become bad. If god is good, then he would not have let his son suffer, while he is watching, he would have helped him, or releif his pain.
If god knows everything, then he should have known that the world would turn into on big mess, therefor he should not have created this world.
I know a lot of people would find this post offending, but I think they are all sheeps that follow the masses. |
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| Posted: 09-18-2002 03:58 AM |
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| Dawgy |
| Burn your flag. |
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read an interesting theory once, about an astral field (An alternate universe/universes) That existed soley on ... faith.
Example, if i would create a cult, to worship my toenail clippings, there would be created the almighty toenail clipping god, but compared to God's following, he would be small, and die when people stopped believeing in him..
Not that i believe this crap myself, i thought it was a funny theory :) |
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| Re: The discussion everyone (should) fears! | |
| Posted: 09-18-2002 04:17 AM |
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| M0nKeY |
| - Remember - |
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| TuMTuM wrote: |
Yes, this is going to be a long thread, but it will be interesting. What I want to discuss here is the following question: "Is/are there, or is/are there not a/multiple god/gods?". Yes, this question might seem a bit high for you to discuss in a normal/non flaming/non nonsense way, but im sure you can all manage to do that. Right? Ok, my personal opinion is, that there is no god, that there is no heaven/hell and that when you die, and youll never come back. |
Not many religions say you "come back" most are based on a better place than here. Who the hell would want to come back here!?
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| [B]The reason for my beleive is simple, when I was young (6/7 years old) I asked our reverend at school if there was a god. He said "Yes there is". I asked him, did god create the universe. "Yes he did". So I said, before the universe existed there was nothing right? He answered "That is correct". So if there is nothing, then god could not have existed, since if god would have existed, then there would be something, cause where would god live then. The reverend could not answer all those questions, and he became slightly mad. |
You should not allow one mans jaded answer be the basis for your religious views. there is no such thing as nothing. deifine it. Lack OF Somthing? The absense of "things" cannot be comprehended by the human mind.
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| [B]A few years later, I still tought the same way.I was 9/10 years old, and I still visited the same school with now a different reverend. Now I had an interesting question. A lot of people in my class stopped beleiving in Santa Claus (actually it was sinterklaas ), and I asked the reverend does he exist. He said "If you beleive in him, he exists". So I said, "That means he doesnt exist, right?" and he answered me with "Yes". Well, I didnt cry about, since I had known this a long time, but what he just said was that Santa could only exist if you beleive in him, so he can not exist if you dont beleive in him. The bastard that I am asked "If I dont beleive in Santa, then he doesnt exist, right. So if I dont beleive in god, then that must mean he doesnt exist either.". Now he was pissed, and he left the school asking where I got the guts to ask that. |
Actually his logic is flawed. Even if you DO belive in santa... he still doesnt exist.
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| [B]As I grew older, I started realizing more and more. For instance, we found dinosaur bones, wich according to the bible could not have lived, since we were created at the 6th day, after the earth was created. Also, it has been a proven fact, that we have evolved from monkeys, while the animals where created at (I beleive) the 5th day, so god can not have created the humans on the 6th, day, as he had already created them at the 5th day. |
Firstly, the bible is just a book. It is NOT the word of god. Secondly evolution has NOT been proven. I don't know where you got that idea. I don't think anyone will argue with me there.
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| [B]Another thing that puzzles me is the fact that god cannot be perfect, alltough he should be perfect according to the bible. So if a perfect being can create a non perfect world, then he cannot be perfect. |
More flawed logic. There is no such thing as perfection. It is a relative term based on personal views.
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| [B]Also, why would god create a world? According to the bible, he did it because he was bored, but you cannot be bored when you are perfect, so you cannot be perfect, if you are god, so you cannot be god. |
Once again, the bible is nothing and I'll wait till you define perfection for us. One mans flaw might be seen as an advantage in another situation. Its relative.
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| [B]Let's assume that god is not perfect at all, but he does exist.Now, he is bored, so he creates a world. Why would he create a world and not look after it? If you play sim city, do you create a city and then stare at it for years, watching how everythings burning, or destroyed. NO, what you do is either play with the world, or you support it. Watching the world evolve is boring, thus god would not be rid of his boredom, and he would have created the world for nothing. |
Ok. Your assuming too much here. Your assuming god exists within a time system. And has to wait for things. In my opinion, it doesnt quite work like that.
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| [B]If god knows everything, then he should have known that the world would turn into on big mess, therefor he should not have created this world. |
Its your opinion the world is a big mess. One might argue we are here to learn lessons (or this might BE hell) and that all suffering has a larger importance to the person experienceing the pain/hardship
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| [B]I know a lot of people would find this post offending, but I think they are all sheep that follow the masses. |
I don't think anyone should find a look into religion offending. But after all... there are crazy poeple out there.
Heres a rant I wrote about in 8th grade. A few years ago. I think it still conveys my religious opinions and I'm too tired to write a new one.
In terms of control humans are very different. Some want to be free to control others. Some want to be controlled as well as control. Some are submissive and some are not. The level at witch the control is and appears to be can also vary widely.
In general most humans posses a sense that they must know more because they are better than the creatures they co-exist with. Forgetting in the process the face that time and space are limiting concepts and the concept of complete control is unfathomable under out current system of thought. Wherein, “god” is a necessary concept for many people. Filling the “holes” can truly be an exhilarating, and for most, a necessary step in becoming a fruitful member of modern society.
In America it seems that youthful theology has been transformed into the need for a “god-less outlet”. Spirituality without god is becoming more and more prominent, and may be disrupting daily life. The wrong kind of spiritual guidance seems to be to blame for many violent crimes against humanity. Intelligence may also be to blame. The smarter humans become the more need they have for a religious revolution. There will be a day when a religion such as Christianity will be looked at as one of the biggest cults in history. Zeus and the gods of today are one in the same, a human conception, not to be confused with the reality humans presently exist in. Of course, the word reality is relative to language, just as these words and this screen are relative to human conception. The limited ability humans have to understand existence is wasted on blind faith in a greater entity. When we, in fact, should be studying human consciousness now more than ever. We are “evolving” and most of the world’s religions are not tagging along. There clearly needs to be a change.
Some say in order to go forward we must go back. The age-old religions such as Buddhism try to teach these lessons. Well… How is this to be done? Clearing of the mind? Meditation? You still have to come back. You CANNOT know what death is while you are alive. Searching leads to nothing. This nothingness is at the core of Buddhism. Yet nothingness cannot be a core. It cannot be anything! As you can see dealing with these concepts is like chasing your tail. The concept of “god” cannot be put into words or even understood. Do you think a six year old would even care about “god” had his parents not corrupted him with their explanation of the unexplainable? I cannot answer this question, because at some point everybody who learns to convey ideas in this reality learns of “god” and listens to some lunatic’s idea of what the truth is.
I too am one of those lunatics…
Look within yourself.
You may find that “god” does not need a name or explanation. |
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"Am I a man dreaming of a butterfly or a butterfly dreaming of a man?" |
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| Posted: 09-18-2002 04:46 AM |
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| TuMTuM |
| Will code HTML for food! |
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| Joined: 17 Feb 2002 |
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Plastic, I do not agree on you that there is no such thing as perfection. There is, it basicallt means you do nothing wrong, and everything you do turns out 'perfect'. For me it seems the closest thing to becoming perfect is dying at birth, as you have done nothing wrong, but since you died you still are not perfect. The bible (and I know it's just a book, but it's also the start for most religions) describes god as perfect and allmighty, what I merely tried to proof to you is that if god really is that, then he would never have created this world.
Actually the perfect god is someone who never existed, cause he never made any mistakes.
And evulotion has not been proven? The existence of god has never been proven, there is nothing on earth that points to the existence of an allmighty and perfect creature that controls our lives. I think that there is so much more proof to evolution then there is to the existence of a god. |
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| Posted: 09-18-2002 04:56 AM |
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| TuMTuM |
| Will code HTML for food! |
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Dawgy, what you are saying is exactly what I think is the case. Since people beleive in god, there is one, but he is not something you can touch, he is not something that has a mind of its own, god is just something created to fill up the holes. What if, when you become 70 years old, someone who is 80 comes to you and says: "Yeah, the god thing, he is like the santa claus for grown ups." would you beleive him? or would you keep beleiving in god.
What im saying trying to say is, that IMHO god is nothing more then Santa Claus, only the person who tought of it died before being able to tell the truth (or maybe he had no intention of telling the truth).
Im almost certain that there has been a Jezus, but I beleive that the Jezus from then is nothing more then a 'healer' from now (as in laying hands and making someone who is blind see again). He just had the idea to tell everyone he was the son of god, so he could get his people's faith back. |
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| Posted: 09-18-2002 05:21 AM |
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| Shn |
| R.I.P. |
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| Joined: 10 Feb 2002 |
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| Dawgy wrote: |
read an interesting theory once, about an astral field (An alternate universe/universes) That existed soley on ... faith.
Example, if i would create a cult, to worship my toenail clippings, there would be created the almighty toenail clipping god, but compared to God's following, he would be small, and die when people stopped believeing in him..
Not that i believe this crap myself, i thought it was a funny theory :) |
I also saw that somewhere (in a french comic book in fact... YES!).
I think (i'll check that at home) that it's asian.
In the story, there were thousands of gods...
(the name is "Lanfeust de Troy" and it's probably been translated... ok i know it's out of the subject).
I've also seen that theory in some anime i finished watching recently. The name is "Serial experiments: Lain".
It explains that God(s) only exist because people believe in it.
And at some point, nobody believes in that entity anymore, and it does "poof" and disappears.
I think that's quite interesting. Religions can be interesting and teach alot of useful stuff.
And i wonder if there are any other interesting and not well-known theories of that sort...
I don't feel like giving my point of view on all the religious stuff...
Not enough time for that, and i'd have to order everything up.
:D
Or maybe i have no real point of view, and i change my mind about that subject everytime i read new stuff about it...
http://www.anus.com
(come on, you know you want to click) |
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| Posted: 09-18-2002 05:53 AM |
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| Dawgy |
| Burn your flag. |
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| Joined: 09 Feb 2002 |
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| Shn wrote: |
I also saw that somewhere (in a french comic book in fact... YES!).
I think (i'll check that at home) that it's asian.
In the story, there were thousands of gods...
(the name is "Lanfeust de Troy" and it's probably been translated... ok i know it's out of the subject).
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I belive your talking about the good good comic series called Sandman, Excellent books 
out of context: The Preacher books are good too, i'd love to have the word of god |
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| Posted: 09-18-2002 06:00 AM |
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| TuMTuM |
| Will code HTML for food! |
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| Joined: 17 Feb 2002 |
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| Shn wrote: |
I also saw that somewhere (in a french comic book in fact... YES!).
I think (i'll check that at home) that it's asian.
In the story, there were thousands of gods...
(the name is "Lanfeust de Troy" and it's probably been translated... ok i know it's out of the subject).
*
http://www.anus.com
(come on, you know you want to click) |
I agree that religions are an important part of live, I also agree that religions help the human race a lot. Without religion, the laws we have today might not have been the same.
Why do you think people have a problem with killing other people? Is it because they are afraid to go to jail, or is it because they are afraid of being punished by something 'higher'? I must admit that if I would commit such a crime, then the 2nd one is the one that would have the biggest chanche of stopping me. |
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| Posted: 09-18-2002 06:16 AM |
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| TuMTuM |
| Will code HTML for food! |
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| Dawgy wrote: |
I belive your talking about the good good comic series called Sandman, Excellent books
out of context: The Preacher books are good too, i'd love to have the word of god |
Comic books are based upon the writers own opinions of something. Therefore I conclude that the comic writers themselves had some doubt about the existence of god.
By the way, Im not trying to say that there is no such thing as a higher lifeform, but I do beleive that it is nothing we could Imagine and certainly not 'God'.
I think god was created out of people that were (NOFI) dumb. It's not their fault, they lived in a time where they just couldnt explain the things like 'why does it become night?', 'How come we are here?', 'Why is John sick?', so they created an entity that could help them explain certain things. However, we are now in a time were most riddles get solved, and I think it's time that people see what the curch is all about. Look at the church people that rape childs. Why would a man of god do such a thing, or why would god allow one of his spokesman to do such a thing? Maybe it is because he as either no control over anything at all, or he doesnt exist. I cant beleive that he would allow such a thing (just like wars, childs killing their parents, etc.)
I dont know what happens to us when we well die, and the problem is I will probably never know, since noone returned from the death, and once you die you probably still wont know cause your death.
Maybe your spirit does live on after you die, Im certain that you dont stop to exist. While you are alive, you spread your ideas and opinions, you do stuff that people will remember and talk about after you pass away, so in some way you will always exist. |
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| Posted: 09-18-2002 06:31 AM |
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| TuMTuM |
| Will code HTML for food! |
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| Joined: 17 Feb 2002 |
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| I do not want to cross post so: TuMTuM in: christian teens #2 And yes, I know where the edit button is, but if a post is longer then 10 minutes apart, then I'll put a new reply in it to give it a bump. If you dont want me to do this, then say so, but if I update I want people to know I updated . |
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| Posted: 09-18-2002 12:24 PM |
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I see the discussion have moved here, so I’ll comment on what you said TumTum and possibly on others thoughts
I do not believe that the Devil (or Lucifer) exists. I take Lucifer merely as a symbol of rationality and independent thought. Since I don’t believe that Lucifer exists, I am not calling for a new religion of Lucifer-worship, or following of Lucifer. By the "Lucifer Elaboration" I was only intending a tongue-in-the-cheek way of calling for a questioning of dogma, an affirmation of rationality and independent thinking. Following, obeying, and worshipping are not part of my own philosophy of life.
I’m amazed at the number of people who seem to think I’m a Satanist. I find Satanism even more silly than Christianity. The former includes most of the irrational beliefs of the latter, but adds an adolescent need to rebel or shock.
Now, you may get the idea that I’m completely anti-religious, or at least completely anti-Christianity. Any religion is a complex mixture of ideas, values, and beliefs. It would be absurd to declare myself totally against such a complex. What I despise in religion is the underlying way of thinking: irrational faith, dependence on dogma, and lack of personal responsibility and self-ownership. Different individuals will use their religion differently. Christianity, from a rational viewpoint, contains both good and bad aspects. Yet, some Christians use the system to do bad despite the good parts, and other Christians use it to do good despite the bad parts. Fundamentalists tend to be the worst because they have to take every word in the Bible at face value, including exhortations to stone to death various "offenders" such as homosexuals, and they find it hard to ignore the enormous amount of violence and even genocide promoted by their God throughout the Old Testament.
Even the relatively sensible parts of Christianity, such as Jesus’ pleas for more loving of one another, have the problem that they are expressed vaguely in the Bible and fail to address complicated issues. In addition, by accepting certain values on faith, it becomes difficult to rationally assess their proper applications and their limitations.
If anyone, for some reason, would like to read more of my thoughts on this subject, then the part in Christian Teens #2 was only a small part of a longer essay I once wrote.
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Last edited by daemon_ninth on 09-18-2002 12:32 PM; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted: 09-19-2002 01:44 AM |
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| TuMTuM |
| Will code HTML for food! |
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| Joined: 17 Feb 2002 |
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| daemon_ninth wrote: |
I see the discussion have moved here, so I’ll comment on what you said TumTum and possibly on others thoughts
*
If anyone, for some reason, would like to read more of my thoughts on this subject, then the part in Christian Teens #2 was only a small part of a longer essay I once wrote.
d_n |
I dont think you are a satanist of some kind, and I dont think anyone else thinks that.
I also find it disturbing that for instance a moslim in the netherlands can say that being gay means being evil, and that you should kill homosexuals. The problem is that according to him this was written in the moslim bible.
So if people beleive everything that it says in the bible, or any other religious book, and they follow the things that are said there. No matter if it is something as small as going to church on sunday. Then the church has some sort of control over these people, wich I think is dangerous.
Satanists are stupid, what are they trying to accomplish by cutting themselves, playing satanist music, etc. You cant tell me that they beleive that they will have much fun in the (if there is one) afterlife, cause they will be treated as they treated others in their life.
Let us look at a religion as a life style, some of them dont have gods, some of them do. If you go to church on sunday, then I have no problem with that. When I was young, I went to them myselve. But I beleive that a lot of the religions are based upon old ideas, and one of those is god, wich I think has been made up to fill in the holes that they could not explain.
However, most of the holes are filled, give me one thing that hasnt been explained yet, and give it a few years, ill be sure it will also be explained by then.
Bah, by now, Im starting to find out that my english sucks arse, as I cant put into words what I have in my mind. To bad... |
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| Posted: 09-19-2002 05:40 AM |
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| Shn |
| R.I.P. |
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| TuMTuM wrote: |
Satanists are stupid, what are they trying to accomplish by cutting themselves, playing satanist music, etc. |
Just one small part (i read the rest, don't worry).
I feel more and more that you're basing your theories on clichés... aren't you ?
At least part of them.
You say satanists are stupid, but who tells you they're not the ones who are right ?
Just imagine Satan ruling the world, they'll be happy and right...
Maybe, according to their beliefs, the afterlife will be better for them...
Hard to explain what i want to say. So i won't bother.
Oh and i listen to and play satanist music. I sometimes read satanist writings. I don't often cut myself, but hey, why not, on stage :D
Now, does that make me a satanist ? (yeah i'm sure that wasn't your point but i like to ask stupid questions)
Now now go away and don't reply or you'll rot in hell |
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| Posted: 09-19-2002 06:40 AM |
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| TuMTuM |
| Will code HTML for food! |
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| Shn wrote: |
Just one small part (i read the rest, don't worry).
I feel more and more that you're basing your theories on clichés... aren't you ?
At least part of them.
You say satanists are stupid, but who tells you they're not the ones who are right ?
Just imagine Satan ruling the world, they'll be happy and right...
Maybe, according to their beliefs, the afterlife will be better for them...
Hard to explain what i want to say. So i won't bother.
Oh and i listen to and play satanist music. I sometimes read satanist writings. I don't often cut myself, but hey, why not, on stage
Now, does that make me a satanist ? (yeah i'm sure that wasn't your point but i like to ask stupid questions)
Now now go away and don't reply or you'll rot in hell |
Ok, I'm not basing my theories on cliches at all, I think if you cut yourself then there is something wrong with you, you are either asking for attention, or something is just not right. Why would you beleif that damaging yourself and others is something that is right? Even if there is a satan and he ruled the world, then why would you follow him if you know what he does is wrong?
What is so good about an afterlife full of suffering and pain (if there is one). Dont tell me that you would enjoy such a thing. IMHO satanists are either:
- Doing the stuff they do cause they think it's cool
or
- Doing the stuff without really knowing what they are doing
It is my opinion that if you enjoy watching dead people, etc (I do not mean find it interesting to look at). Then there is something wrong with you. And my opninion has not been altered in any way. |
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| Posted: 09-19-2002 09:57 AM |
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| M0nKeY |
| - Remember - |
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Hmmm... My girlfriend used to cut herself.
She was hot, but I think shes a crack whore or somthing now. |
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"Am I a man dreaming of a butterfly or a butterfly dreaming of a man?" |
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